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  #1  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:35 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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Default Copyrights, user fees, etc. - 5

From 12 O'Clock High!:

jerry brewer
so it doesn't get lost in the big thread below
Mon Nov 15, 2004 19:03
81.178.253.39


Hi
Copyright , I was working today at a major UK art gallery doing a service visit , and had the chance , whilst working in an office to ask the question on copyright.
The answer suprised me, I knew owning a photo didn't give you copyright , But did you know that owning a negative doesn't give copyright either...
Apparently it all lies with the creator of the item , painting, etc, photo, in our case.
The photographer can sell the photo as much as he likes and can even sell the negative/film/slide and copies of and still retain copyright....
Now comes the hard bit....
If the photographer was in the employment, of say for example, the RAF, then copyright belongs to the RAF, not the photographer, unless the photographer took the photograph on his own camera and did not use any of his employers facilities / time / chemicals / paper etc to produce it.
So basically unless an agreement has been made with the creator, copyright can't be claimed if you own a photo, negative, film, slide, created by him.
So there it is from a horses mouth so to speak, as they have to deal with copyright issues daily.
The parting comment was ....
unless you have written permission from the creator of the photograph etc ...
you are on very dodgy ground if you publish it ...
Cheers
Jerry
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:36 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

CJE
Copyright does not last forever
Mon Nov 15, 2004 19:41
80.13.71.81


In most countries copyrights are extinct 70 years after the death of the "creator". That's the reason why nobody pays any fees to Shakespeare's heirs.
Except... for state-owned agencies (IWM, BA, ECPA...).
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:37 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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H-E
Good:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 19:51
194.230.176.128



So we only must wait for approx. 80 years from now on to be SURE that we have the right to publish most WW II-photographs. That brings us to A.D. 2084. All right, I'm an angler, I'm patient : I'll wait (and I'll be 143 years old).

Many authors ("creators") of photographs were aged, say, approx. 25 in 1945 (some were younger, even 16!). If they live till they're 85 this means until 2005. I wish them a long life, 100 and more if possible, why not. Many really reach 90 and more. In any case, 70 years after 2005 is 2075.
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  #4  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:38 PM
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CJE
To take a well-known example
Mon Nov 15, 2004 20:00
80.13.71.81


The rights for "Le Petit Prince" by Saint-Exupéry - a world's best-seller - will be extinct by 07.1944+70= 07.2014 AD.
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  #5  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:39 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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jerry brewer
creators death
Mon Nov 15, 2004 20:34
81.178.253.39


Hi
Glad you reminded me, You are right.

It means we all have to wait unitl 2010 at the earliest...
But as you say ,however if he was employed by someone etc, the copyright still exists with that employer i.e. RAF, a/c manufacturer , agency , etc.
Good job nobody is really taking it all serious as yet, with court cases etc ....
cheers
Jerry
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Not so easy! Laws can be changed!
Mon Nov 15, 2004 22:00
201.5.168.124


I have seen on web a discussion about copyrights from some classic musics even earlier rock songs due copyrights extinction in Europe (not sure in which country(ies)). Some companies are trying to extend their copyright rights for some years ahead. I guess is has been discussed on USA too... So, remember that Laws can be changed.
Anyway all this copyright fever and money, money, money (Looks familiar being sung by Liza Minelli and Joel Gray...) can someday paralyze printing of books, magazines and manufacturing of decals or models !!
just imagine the relatives from WWII pilots claiming copyright and license to show them on books !!
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  #7  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:42 PM
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Hawk-Eye
Many thanks. Quite disturbing :
Mon Nov 15, 2004 19:44
194.230.176.128


this seems to mean that in most cases you never are able to get either the copyright or the permission to publish. The biggest exceptions are of course the official collections like BA, ECPA, IWM, SHAA and all the others. Besides, if they didn't change their rule SHAA doesn't charge you for reproduction, you pay only a moderate price for the prints.

What you tell us means virtual paralysis of the part of the publishing business - books or magazines, even newspapers - which needs photographs. In numerous cases it's impossible to find the owner of the copyright.
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  #8  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:42 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
just stumbled on this on hyperscale board
Mon Nov 15, 2004 21:09
81.178.253.39


Hi

http://www.clubhyper.com/forums/forum.htm

In thread

Brit Roundels in new CE sheets?

Recently the Canadian Forces demanded royalties from a well known CDN decal maker but after we sent a barrage of emails to the government...the Prime Minister included..they backed off on the royalties.

whatever next ......
cheers
jerry
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  #9  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:43 PM
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From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
Question: if the photographer sells his/her negative...
Mon Nov 15, 2004 21:13
66.163.31.142


...then how can he/she prove that he/she was the one who actually took the photo?

Dénes
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  #10  
Old 12-15-2004, 03:44 PM
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From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
negative
Mon Nov 15, 2004 21:41
81.178.253.39


Hi
Good one ,
Don't know , didn't ask this question , but I will do on my next visit in a few months.
Can only personally assume , that he would have records of taking the photo , record of the sale of the negative, or the record of the cheque paid to him/her, somewhere in the accounts for the taxman.
But if the photo taken was in say 1940 , and the person claiming copyright wasn't old enough to have taken it...
Cheers
Jerry
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:03 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Roger Gaemperle
Again a copyright question....
Thu Dec 2, 2004 20:41
62.203.3.189


Hello,

I have the following question regarding copyright:

Assume that someone owns an original WWII photo and sends me a scan that he allows me to use in a book. If he then sells the WWII photo can I still publish it or do I run into problems? Unfortunately, I do not know the name of the new owner.

Thanks,
Roger Gaemperle
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  #12  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:04 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
photos
Thu Dec 2, 2004 21:12
81.178.203.91


Hi,
It seems from an earlier post I made, that unless the owner sold the copyright with the photo, which he can only do if he originally created the photo and had copyright, or bought the copyright off the original creator, there shouldn't be a problem, just credit the original person who let you copy it.
After working at a national UK gallery, I found out that owning a photo or a negative doesn't give copyright. In fact both can be sold and the creator can still keep copyright until death & then 70 yrs.
A lot of photo owners & publishers claim copyright, when reality they don't realy own it.
But bear in mind I am not a lawyer, only a service engineer.. and things may vary country to country.
Cheers
Jerry
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  #13  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:05 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

David Ransome
Copyright.....
Thu Dec 2, 2004 22:05
195.92.168.167


Hi,

A contact at a commercial law firm would confirm Jerry's comments and that if permission had been given to use a copy of the photo etc then this should have been pointed out to the new buyer of the original item. Once permission has been given, if without a time limit, it seems that it can't be revoked especially for a work already published.

Again, if you can afford it, consult / confirm with a solicitor!

Regards

David
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  #14  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:06 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Roger Gaemperle
Owning copyrights vs. Photo/negative
Fri Dec 3, 2004 10:31
195.49.27.70


Hi David,

Thanks for this additional information. That's a delicate topic and I'll try to make sure not to breach a copyright when using photos for my book even if it costs me some money.

Regards,
Roger
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  #15  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:07 PM
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Alex CRawford
photo collections
Fri Dec 3, 2004 16:49
82.41.147.28


Hi,

It is indeed a problematic subject. I have seen a lot of photos simply credited to Authors collection or so and so's collection.

Does that still pose a copyright issue?

Alex
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  #16  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:07 PM
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From TOCH!:

Ed West
Attorney
Fri Dec 3, 2004 20:36
69.213.95.246


Why guess when you can find out? Contact a copyright attorney, ask what he charges for his services and rest well at night.

Ed
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  #17  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:08 PM
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From TOCH!:

Roger Gaemperle
Photo Collections
Mon Dec 6, 2004 22:09
81.63.7.236


Hi Alex,

I do not know the answer to your question but in the worst case, I guess it would still be a copyright issue if you do not own the original but just a copy for your personal collection. Otherwise, this might be a solution to avoid copyright issues. But I am absolutely no expert in this field.

Roger
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  #18  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:09 PM
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From TOCH!:

Roger Gaemperle
Owning copyrights vs. photo/negative
Fri Dec 3, 2004 10:29
195.49.27.70


Hi Jerry,

Thanks for this interesting information. Would this mean that basically most of the original WWII photos can be published as most of the creators do not live anymore and most of them certainly did not think about selling copyrights before they died. Who owns the copyright if the original creator is no longer alive and nobody bought the copyright? Is it the one who first bought the photo?

Regards,
Roger
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  #19  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:12 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

jerry brewer
copyright
Fri Dec 3, 2004 14:24
81.178.203.91


Hi
Not sure as I didn't ask this question , ( I Will do on my next visit ) , But I believe it passes to the estate of the creator ,
i.e usually the next of kin, family , etc , for the next 70 yrs, unless it is a company ( R-R ) or 'body' (RAF , etc ) they retain it.
So a 1940 photo , if the creator died in 1940 , would be available copyright free in 2010.
I have seen a few photos with copyright claimed by people who don't actually have them, a little research reveals a lot,
i.e. a web photo site claims copyright on some photos , that are actually stills taken from a wartime film taken by pathe news for the air ministry.
Hows that for a bag of worms ....
In this case even if the owner of the photos gave copyright permission, he actually didn't have rights to give it, which he may not have known at the time .
Best way is credit your original source and keep the paperwork, if you have any.
Good luck.
I find it best to print a contact in the publication so that anyone can contact and in the event of re publishing the copyright can be corrected if necessary.

The old caption

' photo supplied via [insert name ] '

after a photo , could always be used if you are unsure of the true copyright owner .
Cheers
Jerry

As usual any comments on the above welcome
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  #20  
Old 12-19-2004, 12:13 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Roger Gaemperle
Owner of photos
Mon Dec 6, 2004 22:06
81.63.7.236


Hi Jerry,

I think that it is very difficult to trace the history of every photo one wants to need for a publication and often it is impossible. So, I thing your suggestion to credit the original source from which one got the photo and to keep paperwork is very good.

I am wondering if there has ever been a legal case due to copyright issues with Luftwaffe photos in books. Probably yes, but I do not know any and what their consequences were.

Regards,
Roger
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