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  #1  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:31 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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Default Luftwaffe Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss reports

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
andrebre@online.no
Loss reports 21. through 26. February 1945
Sun Dec 5, 2004 13:43
129.240.240.122


Hi, guys.

I have been looking through records from GenQu 6 Abt as You know, and as You are all aware of (probably), the records from February 21st through 26th are 'missing', at least they are not available from any known public source as far as I know.

We also know that the January 3rd through January 27th as well as January 29th and January 31st are missing.

I have noticed a 'strange' thing:

While there are plenty of corrections and/or amendments recorded in the documents for previous dates in the missing January period, I have not been able to find ONE SINGLE REFERENCE to the dates between and including February 21st through 26th.

Also, the format of the loss record changes during this week.

My theory, question or what You would like to call it is that during this missing week, something happened that forces the statistical branch of the Generalquartiermeisters offices to do something 'radical' and stop recording losses?? Maybe they had to move due to something which happened?

I would like to see a discussion on this topic, and will also like Richard to carry it over to LWAG...

And guys, no flames needed, this is purely a speculative theory, but a theory that needs to be discussed in my opinion.

Regards,
Andreas
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:32 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Norbert Schuchbauer
Format
Tue Dec 7, 2004 02:27
24.10.93.253


Hi Andreas,
if you look at earlier reports you may find that this format used is very similkar to the one used during 1939 and early 1940.

Regards,

Norbert
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:32 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Yes, I have seen that
Tue Dec 7, 2004 09:52
83.109.137.178


and the question thus is:

Did they use two different formats, one for one kind of use and the other for another kind of use.

As we have only got pieces left of this documentation, it is entirely possible that my theory is entirely wrong.

That still does not explain why I haven't been able to find ANY reference to a record from any of these dates....

If I had found a correction and/or amendment for just one of these dates I wou immediately dismiss my theory, but I haven't.

As all corrections and amendments after these dates are now in the online database, it is not very difficult to see that there are no references in any of the 407 corrections in the report period 27.02.1945 through 01.04.1945 that reference a loss reported in the period 21.02.1945 through 26.02.1945.

This could be a statistical anomaly of course, but I find it hard to believe.

In comparison, one can look at the dates preceeding and succeding the above (date of report / number of corrections and amendments):

17.02.1945 5
18.02.1945 4
19.02.1945 3
20.02.1945 11

21.02.1945 0
22.02.1945 0
23.02.1945 0
24.02.1945 0
25.02.1945 0
26.02.1945 0


27.02.1945 11
28.02.1945 6
01.03.1945 6
02.03.1945 9

If this isnt' strange.... I do not know what is....

The last is just a joke, but I do feel we should be aware of this anomaly when we talk about missing documents.

Regards,
Andreas
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:33 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Norbert Schuchbauer
Corrections
Tue Dec 7, 2004 18:05
24.10.93.253


Hi Andreas,
when it comes to corrections there is often the note: "(Vordruck II)". In some entries a correction states: "Not confirmed by Vordruck II" and the entry is then to be deleted. I suspect that during this period of no corrections the feedback from a verifying source was interrupted or unavailable. I asumes there had to be a verifying agency to the losses otherwise units could get additional equipment or personel allocated without being entitled to it.

Regarding gap I think you on to something. The month of May 1940 is also missing, at least what I have, and through corrections and additions I was able to reconstruct a lot of the information.

On the other hand maybe during those days from the 20. to the 27. there was no reporting activity due to causes yet unknown. This might explain why the reoprt on the 27. is such a lengthy one.

I love being a detective, it is very intriguing.

Regards,

Norbert
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:34 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Yes, I have seen that
Tue Dec 7, 2004 11:32
213.25.54.73


Andreas
Have you checked this gap against timeframe of Allied bomb raids?
Franek
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:34 PM
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
No... I haven't...
Tue Dec 7, 2004 13:30
83.109.137.178


I know that the RLM was in Wilhelmsstrasse 97 (today the German Finance Department) in Berlin.

Anyone got information pointing towards bomb damage to this area on or near these dates?

Andreas
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:35 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
LwGQM Daily Materiel Loss Reports
Wed Dec 8, 2004 15:42
132.60.240.80


Andreas, you have raised some interesting questions about the preparation of the OKL 6.Abt daily materiel loss reports for early 1945. Concerning only the matter of the report presentation and format, I am wondering if you know about the copies of the loss reports for the month of March 1945 held by the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)? I do not have the citation to hand, but I can easily get it for you.

This NARA file is highly interesting because the daily reports in it exactly follow the format used from 1940 through 1943. It is also the same "traditional" or "customary" format as used in the small fragmentary series for the end of January 1945. Thus, for March 1945, at least, there are TWO parallel series of LwGQM daily materiel loss reports but in different formats.

I have not compared the two report series for March 1945, but I'm quite confident that the content is the same. For folks like you and me, however, it becomes a question of which report series is closest to the original data, since each retyping may have introduced errors. Something to think about, perhaps.

RA
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:35 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Parallell series
Wed Dec 8, 2004 16:54
83.109.116.27


Hi, Rabe.

I haven't seen the NARA files, but I have all the available ones from the BA/MA.

It is interesting that You state that there are two parallell series of documents for March 1945, as I haven't found more than one.

If we label the document types as 'portrait' and 'landscape' format, and we look at 1945 as a whole, I have found the following documents:

RL 2/III 766
January 28. 'landscape'
January 29. missing from the file
January 30. 'landscape'
January 31. missing from the file
February 1.
through
February 15. 'landscape'

RL 2/III 767
February 16.
through
February 20. 'landscape'

February 27. 'portrait'

February 28. 'portrait'

RL 2/III 1197
March 1.
through
March 15. 'portrait'

RL 2/III 1198
March 16.
through
April. 'landscape'

If anyone has got additional references, I would be very interested.

The fighter and nighfighter losses with personnel listed as missing during the period 01.12.1944 through 31.01.1945 are also available from the RL 2 III/1170 through 1172.


Regards,
Andreas Brekken
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:36 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
LwGQM Daily Materiel Loss Reports
Wed Dec 8, 2004 17:05
132.60.240.80


Andreas,

It would appear from your presentation that the NARA file I have in mind offers data in "landscape" format for 1-15 March that you have not found at BA-MA. I certainly don't want to exaggerate this, but it could possibly be of comparative use for you.

RA
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
If this is the case
Wed Dec 8, 2004 17:08
83.109.116.27


I would be very interested in obtaining this file, as the 'portrait' version is missing one vital piece of information - namely the location.

Regards,
Andreas
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  #11  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
LwGQM Daily Materiel Loss Reports
Wed Dec 8, 2004 18:20
132.60.240.80


Andreas,

No problem to check the file this evening, I think. Remind me if I should forget.

RA
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:38 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
LwGQM Daily Materiel Loss Repts. - Mar. 1945
Thu Dec 9, 2004 15:50
132.60.240.80


Hallo Andreas and Kari!

The LwGQM daily loss reports to which I referred earlier may be found in National Archives and Records Admininistration (NARA), Record Group (RG) 242, Captured German Records, Microfilm Publication T-321, Roll No. 112. I mistakenly wrote earlier that coverage includes 1-31 March 1945. This is incorrect. Only a few days from March 1945 are included.

The fragmentary file includes the following days:

LwGQM 170/45 6 Mar. 1945 12 entries
LwGQM 370/45 23 Mar. 1945 76 entries
LwGQM 470/45 29 Mar. 1945 65 entries
LwGQM 480/45 30 Mar. 1945 41 entries

The report for 6 Mar. 1945 is in the "portrait" format; the other copies are all in the traditional or customary "landscape" format. And so, working from distant memory at first, it appears that there really is not very much useful to you in this file.

I should note that this file also contains several "Feind-Nachrichten-Dienst" documents for "Atlantiksender" and "Soldatensender" which are concerned with aircrew losses in Unternehmen Bodenplatte. The reports list various German airmen lost on 31 Dec.-1 Jan. 1945, sometimes with odd comments related to place or circumstances of loss. It appears that these FND items may have been broadcast by open frequency radio after the operation in the hope that the Allies would respond by providing further information about the German casualties. These Feind-Nachrichten-Dienst items include quite a bit of data and are extremely interesting historically but probably add nothing to John Manrho's superb book on Bodenplatte. No aircraft are mentioned, of course.

Finally, the NARA T-321, Roll No. 112 contains nine individual LwGQM entries for missing aircrew. These are entries no. 5, 6, 14, 21, 22, 40, 41, 42, and 51 for LwGQM 370/45 dated 23 Mar. 1945 in the style of the BA-MA RL 1170, 1171, and 1172 for Dec.-Jan. 1945.

Hope this helps shed a little further light on the Luftwaffe loss report situation for 1945.

RA
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  #13  
Old 12-20-2004, 02:39 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Not uninteresting!
Thu Dec 9, 2004 16:49
83.109.137.178


Hi, guys!

As I suspected, these documents are all contained in the ones at the BA/MA, and are all fully digitalized in the online database, available and searchable.

I feel that our possibilities for obtaining further info is not exhausted, and having spent some time on the 1944 losses, I am now assured that a large part of the missing material can be reconstructed from existing sources.

Up until now, the task has been overwhelming, simply because of the vast number of entries to be reviewed. But luckily, a properly configured relational database takes care of much of the dirty work....

Regards, Andreas
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