The Luftwaffe Archives & Records Reference Group  

Go Back   The Luftwaffe Archives & Records Reference Group > NAMED AREAS OF INTEREST > Luftwaffe Units & Operations
Register FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-19-2001, 11:39 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Dillon Poole
Anyone Interested in Helping with Fw190 Unit Database?
Wed Mar 14 07:47:59 2001


Okay, I am currently compiling a database of units that operated any form of the Fw190 at one time or another.
I am looking for some people to help me out with it, as it is pretty time consuming because I have rather limited resources and not a whole lot of money to buy books that I
really need to accomplish this.

The database is Gruppe-based (meaning I don't mention individual Staffeln unless only a single Staffel of a certain unit used the Fw190).

It is coming along pretty nicely, but I'm pretty sketchy in the area of SG-units and what aircraft they operated. It is not nearly done though yet.

If anybody is interested, please post here or e-mail me at poole124@hotmail.com. The file was made in Microsoft Works Database and can can be read with MS Access of
any version I believe. I will send you the file and tell me what you think.

Also, here is a list of the units thus far, if there is any other unit out there (probably is), please let me know.

1./AufklGr123
4./AufklGr123
5./AufklGr123
AufklGr32
Ekdo.25
Ekdo.152
Ekdo.190
Stab./JG1
I./JG1
II./JG1
III./JG1
IV./JG1
JFS2
?./JG101
?./JG102
?./JG103
4./JG104
?./JG105
?./JG106
?./JG107
?./JG108
?./JG110
Stab./JG11
I./JG11
III./JG11
10./JG11
10.(Jabo)/JG2
I./JG2
II./JG2
III./JG2
IV./JG2
Stab./JG2
Stab./JG26
I./JG26
II./JG26
III./JG26
10(Jabo)./JG26
10./JG26
13./JG26
14./JG26
15./JG26
Stab./JG3
IV(Sturm)./JG3
15(Sturm)./JG3
Stab./JG300
II(Sturm)./JG300
IV./JG300
Stab./JG301
I./JG301
II./JG301
III./JG301
II./JG302
Stab./JG4
II(Sturm)./JG4
I./JG5
Stab./JG5
III./JG5
IV./JG5
14(Jabo)./JG5
Stab./JG51
I./JG51
II./JG51
13./JG51
15./JG51
IV./JG51
III./JG51
Stab./JG52
Stab./JG54
I./JG54
II./JG54
10(Jabo)./JG54
III./JG54
IV./JG54
Stab./JG6
I./JG6
II./JG6
8./JG6
JGr Süd
JGr Ost
JGr West
JGr Nord
JGr10
JV44
II./KG200
III./KG200
13./KG200
NAGr11
NAGr13
NAGr31
II./NAGr6
1./NJGr10
NSGr20
Seenot20
Stab./SG1
I./SG1
II./SG1
II./SG1
II./NG11
III./NG11
I./NG11
Stab./SG10
I./SG10
II./SG10
III./SG10
13./SG131
Stab./SG1
I./SG1
II./SG1
III./SG1
Stab./SG2
I./SG2
II./SG2
III./SG2
Stab./SG3
I./SG3
II./SG3
III./SG3
Stab./SG4
I./SG4
II./SG4
III./SG4
4./SG5
I./SG5
??./SG54
Stab./SG77
I./SG77
II./SG77
III./SG77
10./SG77
I./SG9
Stab./SKG10
I./SKG10
II./SKG10
III./SKG10
IV./SKG10
SStfl.1
II./ZG76
III./ZG2
Jafu Norway
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-19-2001, 11:40 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Steffen Arndt
Units
Wed Mar 14 08:36:41 2001


Hi Dillon

I suggest you order you units a little bit more as you mix much between Gruppen and Staffeln:

A Jagdgeschwader (operational No. 1-77 and 300-302) consisted of 3 Gruppen (later 4) and each Gruppe consisted of 3 (later 4) Staffeln.

That is e.g.

for the whole war the Geschwader and the Gruppen had each a Stabsstaffel for the Geschwaderkommodore and the Gruppenkommandeure.

early:

JG 51 Geschwader

I./JG 51 erste Gruppe
consisting of
1./JG 51 erste Staffel
2./JG 51 zweite Staffel
3./JG 51 dritte Staffel

II/JG 51 zweite Gruppe
with
4./JG 51
5./JG 51
6./JG 51

III/JG 51
with
7./JG 51
8./JG 51
9.JG 51

at this time there were the special Staffeln 10./JG 26 and 10./JG 2 as JaBo Staffeln and the nightfighterwhich designations I do not remember at the moment. And some
Ergänzungsstaffeln (training units)

late war

I. Gruppe with 1. , 2. , 3. and 4. Staffel
II. Gruppe with 5. , 6. , 7. , 8. Staffel
III. Gruppe with 9. , 10. , 11. and 12. Staffel
IV. Gruppe with 13. , 14. , 15. and 16. Staffel

I cannot tell you when exactly the break was for each Geschwader because I can't access my books until april, but it was different when each Geschwader reached the
new status.

Maybe someone can provide you with the date when the order for the change was given out?

Please I don't want to bother you, it is just a hint.

Regards

Steffen Arndt
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2001, 11:41 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Anyone Interested in Helping with Fw190 Unit Database?
Wed Mar 14 13:48:46 2001


Where the heck did you get the idea that JG 52 ever flew the FW???

KG 54 lost several FWs while transitioning to the 262. I think I ven recall a FW being reported lost to NJG 1.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-07-2002, 03:19 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

David P. Williams
Airfields for Stab./JG 52
Sun Dec 30 14:38:05 2001


I am seeking information on Stab./JG 52s airfields in May 1942.
1. Where were they stationed on 1st May 1942?
2. I Know they were operating from Artemowsk, Charkov and Woltschank, but can anyone supply me with the dates they transferred to each of these airfields?
3. Lastly,who was the Gruppenkommandeur of the Stabsstaffel, if anyone, in May 1942?
Many thanks to anyone who can help on any of these matters.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-07-2002, 03:19 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Organisation of a fighter unit staff
Mon Dec 31 15:51:37 2001


Hi!

There was no Gruppenkommandeur of the Stabsstaffel. The head of the Stab flight (which often was of Schwarm strength, or even just a Rotte in some cases) was the Kommodore of the whole Geschwader. In some cases he wasn't flying operationally (for different reasons) but lead the operations from the ground. In those cases a Schwarmführer or Staffelführer (if the flight attached to the Stab was of that strength) was the leader of the aerial operations.

Thus the leader of the Stabsstaffel of JG 52 in May 1942 would be the Kommodore, Major Helmut Lessmann (or Leesmann, I never seem to get a real confirmation on the spelling of his name, could also be because of the confusion with the Kommandeur of I. Gruppe Major Karl-Heinz Leesmann).

I am sure other JG 52 people can answer You if he lead the operations in the air himself, but I am not sure he did.

Andreas
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:27 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

dirk schulz
Jg Structures
Fri Mar 21 15:59:46 2003
147.40.250.250

Hi, I have a question about the Geschwader structures. There was a Geschwader e.g.jg53, then there are the Gruppen and then the staffeln for each group. Thats how i understand it. Now, how are they named??: Jg 53 , 1. gruppe , 4. Staffel?? What does then IIJg53 or 2. Jg53 stand for? is it 2. gruppe or 2. staffel?? if you had 3 gruppen with each 3 staffeln, do you count then staffel 1 to 9 or only 1 to 3 and again 1to 3?? Why do some use the latin 2 and some the roman II ??
Please help me out of thet confusion.!!
Thanks

Dirk
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:28 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Andy Fletcher
Re: Jg Structures
Fri Mar 21 16:17:01 2003
12.151.162.11


Hi Dirk,

Roman numerals refer to the gruppe ie. III/JG26 is the 3rd Gruppe of Jagdgeschwader 26

Latin numbers refer to individual staffeln ie, 3/JG26 is the 3rd staffel of Jagdgeschwader 26

For most of the war there were 3 staffeln per gruppe and normally three gruppen per geschwader. Later in the war a 4th staffel was added to most Jagdgruppen and a 4th gruppe added to most Jagdgeschwader. Most Nachtgeschwader had 4 gruppen (some had 5). But like with most things with the Luftwaffe nothing was a hard and fast rule.

The designations of the individual staffeln run concurrently from 1 upwards. For example in a 3 staffel gruppe in a Jagdgeschwader with 3 gruppen the individual staffeln would be numbered as follows.

I/JG26: 1/JG26, 2/JG26, 3/JG26
II/JG26: 4/JG26, 5/JG26, 6/JG26
III/JG26: 7/JG26, 8/JG26, 9/JG26

For a geschwader with 4 gruppen of 4 staffeln each the individual staffeln would be numbered 1-16, with 1-4 belonging to the first gruppe, 5-8 belonging to the second gruppe etc.

Hope this clarifies matters

Regards

Andy Fletcher
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:35 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Bobbie
JG structures
Sat Mar 22 06:35:59 2003
152.163.189.236

Hi Andy:

Thank you so much for explaining that! I was wondering myself as well. I've read lots of books but I think your explanation was the most definitive and easiest to understand.

...

Thanks!
Bobbie
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:37 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

DIRKIO@WEB.DE
THANKS
Mon Mar 24 08:58:10 2003
147.40.250.250

Thank you very much Andy.

...

Dirk from Sandhofen CAAF, Germany
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:40 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Steffen Arndt
Latin=Roman, ..
Mon Mar 24 08:11:51 2003
149.243.232.3

Hi Andy, Dirk

I want to slightly correct the statements concerning the numerals:

I, V, X, D, C, L, M are Latin (or Roman if you want)

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0 are Arabic

regards

Steffen
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:41 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Bard
A good advice
Sat Mar 22 12:53:01 2003
217.70.229.41

A very good investment is ,I really reccomend it
The Luftwaffe Data Book by A.Price
I think it's very handy ,it'll give you almost what you need about the LW.
It looks like it's still available from:Midland Counties
at ONLY £8.99
do a "search" at their website and see.
www.ianallansuperstore.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-20-2003, 11:24 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

John Manrho
Stab positions
Mon May 26 16:58:28 2003
195.121.70.71

Somewhere on the web I read what exactly the Stab positions within a Gruppe and Geschwader ment. Does anybody know where I can find information on what a

Major beim Stabe
Adjutant
Ia
etc.

exactly does?.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-20-2003, 11:26 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Stab positions
Mon May 26 18:26:42 2003
80.212.197.137

Hi, John.

I do believe that the clearest description I have seen in print is the one written by Prien and Rodeike in the first volume of their series on JG 77, a description of the Jagdgeschwader as a tactical unit. There was deviations from this standard, and later on in the war the units were expanded in size, but the main structures survived.

I have included more info below than You asked for John, but this might be of interest to other readers.

The Geschwader consisted of a Stab and 3 (later 4) Gruppen. (one Gruppe, several Gruppen)

The Gruppe consisted of a Stab and 3 (later 4) Staffeln. (one Staffel, several Staffeln)

In the Geschwaderstab, the commanding officer was the Kommodore. He was supposed to have the rank of Oberst, but could also be a Major or Oberstleutnant.

In addition to the CO, the following personnel were involved in the business of running the unit:

The Geschwader-Adjutant who was responsible for the areas IIa (Personnel, officers) and IIb (Personnel, other ranks).

The Major beim Stabe, responsible for the areas Ia (Operational questions) and Ic (Enemy activity).

The NO or Nachrichtenoffizier (responsible for communications and tactical recon)

The TO or Technische Offizier (responsible for the technical equipment, like aircraft....)

There was also the IVa, who was responsible for the other administrational task, supplies etc

The Kfz.-Offizier was responsible for the motorized transportation of the unit.

In addition to these key persons, the other parts of the Stab would count some 60 persons, from drivers to technical personnel for the aircraft and clerks.

The Geschwaderstab also had a Luftnachrichten-Kompanie attached, consisted of some 150 men divided in three so called Züge:

1. Zug Ln.-Betriebszug
2. Zug Funkzug
3. Zug Fernsprechbauzug

These were all occupied with the communications needed to run the unit effectively.

The Stab were set up with a Soll of 4 aircraft, one Schwarm, often a reserve aircraft or two were available. These aircraft were to be flown by the Kommodore and the other officers in the Stab, but as several officers in the Stab were non-flying personnel, one would frequently see pilots from other parts of the Geschwader flying in the Stabsschwarm.

The Gruppe was commanded by the Gruppenkommandeur, which was supposed to be a Major. Often people of lesser rank would be responsible for a Gruppe, several with rank as low as Hauptmann.

The Gruppen-Adjutant was responsible for the same area in the Gruppe as the Geschwader-Adjutant in the Geschwader. The same goes for the Hauptmann beim Stabe, the NO and the TO. The Gruppen-Arzt (IVb) was the doctor in the unit, there was two people covering the are IVa and one technical official. The Chef der Stabskompanie was responsible for the smooth running of the unit, and he had some 260 men to help him, the Werftzug (60 men), the Technisches Personal (30 men), the Nachrichtenzug (73 men), the Kfz.-Zug (33 men), the Flakzug (22 men) and other personnel (42 men).

The Gruppenstab had 4 aircraft, one Schwarm, and often a couple of reserves. These were usually flown by the Gruppenkommandeur and the other officers in the Stab, but also other personnel in the Gruppe were used if necessery to fill up the Stabsschwarm.

The Gruppen were numbered with roman numerals, I., II., III. etc

The smallest tactical unit in the Luftwaffe was the Staffel. It was commanded by the Staffelkapitän, he should be a Hauptmann, but as war broke out several units were commanded by Oberleutnante or even some Leutnante. Some people are often confused by the use of the term Staffelführer, this was a purely operational duty often carried by an experienced officer in the Staffel, in place of the Staffelkapitän if he was not able to lead the unit in the air.

A Staffel consisted of some 12 pilots and about 100 men ground personnel. The pilots ranks were supposed to be 4 Officers, 4 Feldwebeln and 4 Unteroffiziere, but here one would see large deviations from standard.

The Staffeln were numbered with 1., 2., 3., 4., etc.


Summing up, an early Jagdgeschwader consisted of some 2324 men! Of these only 124 were pilots! and about 2200 had other duties.

So as I use to say to some of my research friends: Don't chase after the pilots only when looking for info!!! The large resources qould probably be found in other places.

Regards and hope this is of some help,
Andreas
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-20-2003, 11:28 AM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

John Manrho
Thanks
Mon May 26 19:13:24 2003
195.121.70.40

Thanks Andreas, I have the Prien JG 77 volumes myself. I knew I read it somewhere. Thanks again for the help. John.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:58 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Douglas Jr.
Schwarm or Vierfingerschwarm ???
Wed Jan 14 10:12:57 2004
200.211.6.13

Hi folks,

I have a question very simple concerning the term that was used by the Luftwaffe pilots to the flight formation created by Mölders during the Spanish Civil War.

In fact I´d like to know what was the "official" name of this formation: Schwarm or Vierfingerschwarm? I know that the expression "finger four" was used by the Allies but I need to know what was the name used by the Germans and when it was developed.

Many thanks in advance,

Douglas.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:58 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Klaus Schiffler
Schwarm
Wed Jan 14 23:38:50 2004
198.81.26.41

The flight of four fighters is called the Schwarm in the Luftwaffe. This consists of two pairs or elements which cover each other and is called the Rotte. Each Rotte consists of the leader and his wingman. This was developed during the Spanish Civil War in the fighter group of the Legion Condor, J 88, and was incorporated in the fighter arm afterwards. The fighter pilots who contributed to this organization were: Günther Lützow, Harro Harding, Joachim Schlichting, and Werner Mölders. A good source is "Legion Condor" by Karl Ries and Hans Ring.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:59 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Douglas Jr.
Klaus, thank you for your assistence! (n/m) (nm)
Thu Jan 15 00:55:25 2004
200.98.95.182
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-04-2004, 12:59 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Schwarm
Thu Jan 15 14:18:46 2004
213.25.54.73

I'd rephrase the original question. How would be the Section of three differentiated from the Section of four? Would it be the Kette and the Schwarm? Or is one term reffering to organisation and another to formation?
BTW
Finger four formation has several imperfections and the Jagdwaffe often used Sections of three formation, at least early in the war.
Franek
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-04-2004, 01:00 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

CJE
Franek, you raise an interesting point
Thu Jan 15 18:03:18 2004
80.13.176.127

What kind of imperfection?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-04-2004, 01:01 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 23,700
Default

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Franek, you raise an interesting point
Thu Jan 15 20:03:19 2004
213.25.54.73

Writing from the memory at the moment but may check later. Finger four formation required experienced and trained pilots as it was not easy to maneuver and easy to disperse. It was preffered as a battle formation only.
Franek
Reply With Quote
Reply

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Hybrid Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode
Threaded Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Rules
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.