Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410 Werknummern

From 12 O'clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 110 Werkenummer
Tue Dec 12 14:42:29 2024


Hi, people.

In the loss lists, Bf 110's with Werkenummer 4500, 4502 and 2651 are listed as Bf 110E-2's. (6.(Z)/JG 5)

When comparing this to the Flugzeugbestand lists of 10.(Z)/JG 5, which are the same unit renamed during March 1942, I find that they list their Bestand as consisting of Bf
110C and D's. In fact, I cannot see a single E-series Bf 110 listed before July 1942. (And now in 13.(Z)/JG 5)

Can anyone with better knowledge of the Bf 110 than me please enlighten me?

Regards,

Andreas Brekken

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Bf 110 in JG 5 Zerstörerstaffeln
Tue Dec 12 15:52:44 2024


The connection of Werknummern-blocks to subtypes of the Bf 110 is not easy for the early C and D-series. Nevertheless loss-reports are quite clear, that a/c in the 2631 - 2660 and 4400 to 4534 range are E-2 and E-3 subtypes.

As for the "Flugzeugbewegungsmeldungen": This is a very important source, but (like all German statistical material) also has its share of mistakes. For example, the "AS"-high-altitude-version of the Bf 109 is only reported at a very late date and only from a few units in spite of certainly being available in larger numbers. The mistake for 13.(Z) /JG 5 is quite evident: At the end of June 1942 the Flugzeugbewegungsliste has 4 Bf 110 C/D and 10 Bf 110 F2. At the beginning of July 1942 this should be the same, but actually 4 Bf 110 C/E (Emil) are reported!
Remember, that in German language "D" and "E" are pronounced very similar. I guess, that E-type Bf 110 were around prior to July 1942, and only the Flugzeugbewegungsliste was wrong

From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
W.nr. vs subtype
Tue Dec 12 17:32:59 2024


As a general rule, the RLM W.nr blocks are a pretty good, but not absolutely accurate, method for identifying what subtypes of aircraft were originally produced. They
cannot tell you what subtype the aircraft was at some later date, as in many cases, the subtype was changed by umbau. For example, some Ju 88s originally came off the
line as A-1s and ended up as A-4s, A-12s or A-16s, etc. Many subtypes were only produced through the rebuild process and so none of the W.nrs run sequentially or in a
block. I don't have much data on Bf-110s, but for certain this is true of Bf-109s, Ju 88s, Do 217 etc.

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Re: Werknummern and Aircraft Subtypes
Tue Dec 12 23:38:09 2024


I would simply like to add that both Charles Bavaroise's and Artie Bob's comments are, as usual, perfectly on the mark. There is little doubt that the Luftwaffe
systematically undertook to update Bf 110s just as it did Bf 109s, Ju 88s, and other types. There are, however, presently two difficulties with understanding this. First, the
Luftwaffe community's mindset does not seem willing or able to grasp the great extent and implications of the GAF's rebuild, update, and modification programs. Second,
the GAF's rebuild, update, and modifications programs apparently have never been systematically studied and described. There is, to the best of my knowledge, in this the
year 2024, no satisfactory description and analysis of the Luftwaffe's enormously important efforts to retain, repair, and continuously improve the aircraft in its inventory.
Such a study would be deeply revealing and would illustrate yet again one of the fundamentally different traits of the Luftwaffe as compared with its adversaries.

RA

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Errors etc
Wed Dec 13 08:07:39 2024


Hi, Charles, Rabe and Artie

Thanks for the useful answers. I have of course also seen errors and misidentifications earlier.

I think Rabe is touching on a very interesting topic/area for research, which ultimately would bring the understanding of what a complex organisation the Luftwaffe was forward.

As a little comment on this, I have found that a couple of groups in JG 5 "converted" their FW 190A-2's to A-3 standard. This is really just an engine change, but it is interesting to see how this lead to a redesignation in Gruppe level reporting on aircraft inventory, and that the reports were based on the equipments (sometimes....) technical status, and not the WNr and original designation.

Regards,

Andreas

From 12 O'Clock High!:

David E. Brown
Bf 110 G-4/R3 "9W+BO", 6./NJG 101: Werknummer?
Fri Jan 5 16:14:17 2024


Over the Holidays I decided to sort my various files and stumbled across one for the Bf 110 G-4/R3 “9W + BO” of Einsatzkommando 6./NJG 101 captured at Fritzlar in May
1945. After reviewing the file I remembered why I buried it.

This well studied and oft-commented upon aircraft has bothered me for some time. While the location of its discovery and unit affiliation are well known through about 6
photos (most of which have been published), its precise identity is unknown.

It has been claimed in through several sources / postings that its Werknummer was 140779, or possibly 160785. Yet study of the known photographs reveal no evidence of
a Werknummer on either of the vertical stabilizers. It is especially true that such markings were always on the port side of an aircraft (especially if not on the starboard
side) for virtually all aircraft types.

Given these observations, one is forced to rely upon the aircraft’s camouflage, markings, radar and other features in order to determine its Werknummer block.
Interestingly, I don’t recall seeing any G-4 aircraft in the 140000-series with the Werknummer visible, however those is the 160000-series are well displayed in black.
Perhaps this particular aircraft had them painted out, or less plausibly, never applied. But there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of either. Replacement tails maybe? There
is also no evidence of the SN-2 “IV” marking on the tails as well. Both the Werknummer and the radar markings are invariably present on other G-4 series aircraft.

So the questions remain:

1. How was the 140779 Werknummer dertemined?

2. If unknown, from what Werknummerseries (manufacturer) did it possibly come from?

Any thoughful comments and discussion appreciated.

Cheers,

David

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Hans Nauta
Correct sub-types related to Bf.110 Werkenummers
Sat Jun 9 14:15:35 2024


Hello everybody,

Can somebody put the correct sub-types (e.g. D-3 or G-4) to the next Werkenummers of Bf.110's?

1548
2430
2664
3273
3441
3545
4059
4209
4615
4811
5454
5471
730096
740136

Thanks in advance for your effort,

Hans Nauta

From TOCH!:

Dennis Peschier
Me110 subtypes
Sat Jun 9 15:48:34 2024


Hoi Hans,
I have compared these wnrs with with a list of Me110 losses. So it is not hard evidence, but an educated gues.

1548 C-1 or C-3
2430 E-2 or E-3
2664 F-4
3273 C-4
3441 E-1
3545 C-4
4059 E-1
4209 D-3
4615 F-4
4811 F-4
5454 G-4
5471 G-4
730096 G-4
740136 G-4

Groeten,
Dennis

From TOCH!:

Hans Nauta
Thanks-Bedankt! (n/t)
Sun Jun 10 22:05:57 2024

From 12 O'Clock High!:

peter zambori
Missing Me-110 Wnr.
Thu Jun 21 23:54:27 2024


Could somebody tell me the correct Werkenummers and subtypes for these Me-110 planes?
BA+CF
BA+CS
BB+UN
BI+SV
CC+MO
CE+CX
CF+NE
CF+NL
CS+BL
CS+OB
CT+OB
DE+MP
TD+GZ
TP+SH
VE+VB
VC+EH

Thanks in advance,
Peter

From TOCH!:

Dennis Peschier
A little help
Fri Jun 22 21:38:40 2024


Peter,
I have compared them with existing stammenkenzeigen/werknummer links. This is a very unreliable methode, so the result is certainly no fact.
CF+NE could be 3064, a C-2. CF+NL could be 3071, a C-2. And DE+MP could be 3544, a C-4.

Dennis

From TOCH!:

peter zambori
thanks, great help (n/t)
Sat Jun 23 09:58:05 2024

From TOCH!:

peter zambori
Unit ABKZ in Ungarn
Sat Jun 23 11:59:54 2024


These Me-110 planes were served with Ausbildungkommando Zerstörer in Ungarn from May, 1943. This unit was commanded by Oblt. Hans-Armin Weirich. The crew and the planes arrived from Memmingen (ZG.101). Who knows more?

Any information is welcome.
peter

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

John Vasco
W. Nr.
Fri May 17 21:21:24 2024
195.92.168.163

Rabe,

There is also the Mankau/Petrick book on the 110/210/410 which is quite useful on W. Nr..


John Vasco

From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

John Vasco
W. Nr.
Fri May 17 21:21:24 2024
195.92.168.163

Rabe,

There is also the Mankau/Petrick book on the 110/210/410 which is quite useful on W. Nr..


John Vasco

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410 Werknummern Data
Fri May 17 23:13:54 2024
205.188.197.151

Yup, dead right John! Jumped on this one when it first
came out and am deeply impressed. Petrick/Mankau seems to
be a model for how aircraft technical histories should be presented! We are REALLY lucky to have this team's work,
it seems to me.

RA

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Junker
(No email address given)
Bf 110G-4 Uhu-Einbausatz?
Sun Sep 1 16:20:30 2024
195.249.149.242

At the crashsite of the Bf 110G-4, at Maribo/DK, a list of all aircraft's of Stab/III and 7. and 8 Staffel was found. It was from end 1943 listing Wnr. Verbandskennzeichen and also if they were fitte with radar and extra armour. Wnr. 740013 was fittet with a Uhu-Einbausatz. Does anyone know what kind of extra gear this stands for?

Junker

From TOCH!:

Radiomonitor
UHU-Funkleitgeräte
Sun Sep 1 18:18:48 2024
80.33.178.189

02.09.01-1704z--There were two UHUs - UHU 1 - was a radio-command-equipment, made up by the aircraft's VHF receiver FuG17e- working on 42-48 mHz- and by which the Fighter-Commander on the ground cound give signals to the aircraft in the air such as bearing(to the enemy aircraft), flight level and distance. The UHU 1 was electrically attached to FuG17 and was the "Einbausatz".---- UHU 2 was a similar equipment - coupled to the aircraft's FuG16zy- working on 38-42 mHz- the supplement radio set - the "Einbausatz" was the FuG135. -- The Fug16 and FuG17 were alike, only difference was the frequency. FuG16zy was a normal Zielfluggerät, by which the aircraft could "home" on a received radio signal from a beacon-- The FuG16 and FuG17 worked also as ordinary radio telephones and were standard navigation equipment from about beginning of 1944 -- Before then the navigation radio traffic had been carried on long-wave on telegraphy (morse)using the equipment of the FuG10 (EL=Empfänger Langwelle)--vy73-KAL+

From TOCH!:

Junker
Thank's a lot N/T
Mon Sep 2 06:42:14 2024
195.249.149.209

From TOCH!:

Radiomonitor
UHU 1 - Einbausatz
Mon Sep 2 06:58:23 2024
80.33.178.189

02.09.02-0556z--The Einbausatz for UHU1 was the FuG28a--I had not mentioned it in my former article-vy73-KAL+