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  #1  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:06 PM
Richard T Eger Richard T Eger is offline
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Joe Potter
Haupt Kurt Geisler, SKG 10.
Sat Jul 20 15:18:20 2002
195.92.168.169

I am investigating the loss of Kurt Geisler, a Fw 190 A5/U8 pilot was found 06.09.43, with a French Civilian Identity document and this was handed to I.O. of the RAF unit that was dealing with the incident, how can this unit be traced?
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  #2  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:07 PM
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From TOCH!:

Chris Goss
Re: Haupt Kurt Geisler, SKG 10.
Sat Jul 20 15:47:05 2002
80.40.78.179

Geisler (Staffel Fuehrer of 3/SKG 10) was forced to crash by Houghton and Patson of 85 Sqn at 2145 hrs on the date mentioned. The only way of finding out the RAF unit that this was handed to would be to work out the nearest RAF unit to Hawstead in Suffolk
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  #3  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:08 PM
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From TOCH!:

Joe Potter
Thanks Chris
Sat Jul 20 17:17:14 2002
195.92.168.172
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  #4  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:08 PM
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From TOCH!:

richard dunn
Geisler's fate?
Fri Jul 26 18:19:51 2002
68.49.1.174

Chris

An SKG 10 POW captured in November 1943 stated that Hauptmann Geisler had been killed on operations. The interrogation report refers to this information as a previously "unreported" loss.

What happened here? Was Geisler captured but successfully concealed his identity from MIS? They usually kept pretty good track of RK-holders.

Rick
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  #5  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:09 PM
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From TOCH!:

Joe Potter
Haupt Kurt Geisler, SKG10.
Sat Jul 27 21:30:22 2002
195.92.168.166

Thanks Rick,
I have just started to invesigate this case, so far I have found that a Fw 190 A5/U8 crashed at Filey's Farm, Hawstead, Nr Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk at 21.45 hrs on 6th September 1943, both the A.D.I.(K)Report 381A/1943 and the Crashed Enemy Aircraft report Serial No. 210 dated 2nd November, 1943, state that, The wreckage was in a state of complete disintegration, and it has been impossible to establish either the unit or the identity of the pilot.
No Werk Nr given.
The pilot of this aircraft was buried at at Bury St. Edmunds on 10th September 1943, and the only clue to his identity is that he was aged, 30 yrs approx.
He was Exhumed by German War Graves Commission on 22nd November 1962 and relocated in Block 1, Row 12, Grave 465 at Cannock Chase.
So far the only evedince that I have found to sugest that the pilot was indeed Kurt Geisler is that he was born 28.01.1914, this pilots identity is only wilful assumption.
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  #6  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:09 PM
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From TOCH!:

richard dunn
Geisler
Sat Jul 27 21:51:35 2002
68.49.1.174

Joe

Check ADI (k) 491/1943 (don't know original date but forwarded by US MA London 16 Dec 43). POW was In I/SKG 10 May to Nov 43. Lists several previously "unreported" losses during that period (i.e. unreported to UK intel). One is Hauptmann Geisler but unfortunately no date is given. Of 5 "unreported" losses 3 were on 2 or 3 Nov 43. In addition to Geisler there is one other undated loss, Uffz.Breyer.

Hope this info helps. My data is very incomplete and I have not been working ETO material much for many years.

Regards,

Rick
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  #7  
Old 09-02-2002, 04:10 PM
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From TOCH!:

Joe Potter
Hupt Kurt Geisler
Sun Jul 28 10:44:30 2002
195.92.168.172

Thanks Rick,
Ill check out 491/43 when I can find a copy.
Regards
Joe
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  #8  
Old 04-15-2003, 12:11 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

David Sumerauer
ranger 8.8.1944
Sun Mar 2 12:14:55 2003
212.20.98.196

During the Ranger operation over Holland on the August 8, 1944 310. (Czech) squadron RAF claimed its last victory. Sgt. Arnost Elbogen (RAF, 788096) and F/O Stanislav Masek (RAF, 133435) were credited with 1 Do-217 destroyed at 19.00 eight km east of Nijmegen. Czechoslovakians were flying obsolete Spitfires V (EN899, AR 441) on that occasion. Can anybody identify their victim?, Who claimed the last victory flying Spitfire V in ETO?
Best regards
David
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  #9  
Old 04-15-2003, 12:15 PM
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From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Do 217
Sun Mar 2 17:02:20 2003
212.159.49.204

From 8./KG 100: Uffz. Schildknecht's crew was lost on Hs 293 op. versus destroyers off Avranches. Hit by heavy A.A. fire. Do 217, W.Nr. -, 6N+HS. However, ADI(K) Report 457/1944 times the loss at 0100/8th so I doubt it fits your case.

Over Holland, KG 2 is a much better bet. Ulf Balke's history of this unit doesn't mention a loss on the 8th though (at least not from a quick look while typing this).
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  #10  
Old 04-15-2003, 12:16 PM
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From TOCH!:

Jaap Woortman
Do217 at 8.8.44
Tue Mar 4 11:23:52 2003
193.67.187.140

II./KG 2 has lost an Do217K/M at Handorf, Germany.
It is mentioned in Balke, part 2.

Jaap
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  #11  
Old 04-15-2003, 12:17 PM
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From TOCH!:

David Sumerauer
Re
Wed Mar 5 18:25:08 2003
212.20.100.229

Hello Nick,
thanks a lot for your help. Were there any other losses of German two engined bombers in the case of misidentification?
For your information F/Sgt A. Elbogen was killed 3 days later (11.8.1944) during an attack on train south of Zaltbommel in Holland in Spitfire LF Vb AR441. He was again flying with his companion F/O Masek.
Regards David
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2003, 11:57 AM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Richard T. Eger
Effectiveness of Flak versus Luftwaffe interceptor fighters
Tue Jun 17 22:31:51 2003
162.33.234.91

Dear Fellow Researchers,

"Flak" is definitely not my area of expertise. Recently, I was filing away some A.D.I.(K) documents when I ran into what I considered a bit mind-boggling statistics regarding the effectiveness of Flak versus that of Luftwaffe interceptor fighters. For reference, the specific report is A.D.I.(K) 351/1945.

In this report, information is generally presented in groups of 4 tables covering statistics for 1944, Dec. 1944, Jan. 1945, and Feb. 1945. Appendix I covers day fighter operations over Reich territory. Comparing combined confirmed and probable enemy aircraft destroyed by Flak versus day fighters, the tables show:

1944:

Flak: 2,246 (avg. 187/mo.) (36%)
Day Fighters: 3,984 (avg. 332/mo.) (64%)

Dec. 1944:

Flak: 177 (38%)
Day Fighters: 286 (62%)

Jan. 1945:

Flak: 127 (64%)
Day Fighters: 73 (37%)

Feb. 1945:

Flak: 447 (96%)
Day Fighters: 19 (4%)

Appendix II presents figures for night fighter operations.

1944:

Flak: 325 (avg. 27/mo.) (16%)
Night Fighters: 1,707 (avg. 142/mo.) (84%)

Dec. 1944:

Flak: 10 (11%)
Night Fighters: 81 (89%)

Jan. 1945:

Flak: 51 (31%)
Night Fighters: 113 (69%)

Feb. 1945:

Flak: 31 (15%)
Night Fighters: 181 (85%)

Now, assuming that the numbers are somewhere close to correct and not explainable away, it appears, at least for day operations, that putting more effort into Flak defense and less into the day fighter arm might have yielded higher kills, possibly making daylight bombing prohibitively costly for the Allies. This blows my mind away and completely turns my thinking up-side-down.

I'll leave it at that for others to comment and also on why the situation was different at night.

Regards,
Richard

(A.D.I.(K) Report No. 351/1945 is entitled "G.A.F. Operations, Claims and Losses, 1944 - Feb. 1945." A considerable discussion followed my posting of this message on 12 O'Clock High!. The full thread, along with more data from this report, can be found on the topic "Books and websites on Flak - 2" on the "References & Reference Materials" forum.

Regards,
Richard)
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  #13  
Old 12-14-2003, 12:43 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

mark sheppard
Paperwork carried by Fw190's
Wed Nov 19 17:39:39 2003
62.241.188.42

Hi all

Remember reading about the Fw190 A-4 which was captured after landing in the UK.

In the subsequent report is reported that the aicraft carried 'documentation'.

I am assuming from this that certain documents relating to the aircraft itself was carried, not say maps from the pilot.

I know he hatch door had a pocket. Believe this carried documents relating to the operation and servicing of the radio and oxygen.

Wondered whether the one in the cockpit might have carried the servicing intervals or flying restrictions?

Just wondered and would be interested in knowing if any documents relating to these questions were actually out there or had been found on digs?

regards

MS
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  #14  
Old 12-14-2003, 12:44 PM
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From TOCH!:

Artie Bob
A.D.I. (K)
Wed Nov 19 20:48:47 2003
216.80.145.87

This section of the air intelligence organization was apparently responsible for the collection of information on the Luftwaffe, other than hardware (A.I.2(g)) or communication intercepts(?). POW interrogations are possibly best associated with ADI(K)and there are hundreds of interrogation reports with very detailed and interesting information. Possibly less well known is the collection of printed material: i.e. diaries, logbooks,letters, personal identification papers, technical manuals, etc. As the war moved to the continent and large quantities of Luftwaffe documents were captured, many of these were funneled through A.D.I.(K) and distributed to the groups that would use these as input for various intelligence purposes. So, if a Fw 190 were shot down or surrendered, this group would probably have collected and disemminated any material of this nature that happened to be on board. That being said, normally, the records of an aircraft would probably not carry on board maintenance records nor would the pilot normally carry his Flugbuch. However manuals, diaries, etc. were sometimes found either on the a/c or crew members.
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  #15  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:50 PM
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From 12 O'Clock High!:

Christer Bergström
On Galland and Spitfires
Sun Feb 15 10:03:59 2004
81.225.209.126

The subject on Galland and his possible request for Spitfires has been discussed in a couple of threads on this board in recent time.

If an intelligent, educated and serious person like Galland would have a serious request for Spitfires for his Geschwader, he wouldn't have forwarded it like that. At least, he wouldn't have limited his request to that impulsive remark. If he would have had a serious request for Spitfires for his Geschwader, he would have devoted some time to write a long report where he explained why. Galland was a major in the Wehrmacht, and as such he knew how to make a request in the right way if it would have any chance to be met.

The whole "Spitfire story" is something else. If it is true (which I see no reason to doubt, although there is - as one has pointed out - no confirmation), then it reflects the growing tension between Galland and his superior Göring by that time. A tension which in turn was due to the frustration they both felt because of the Jagdwaffe's shortcomings over the English Channel. Galland felt irritated, and said something to tease Göring. It also reflected the frustration that Galland felt over the Bf 109's short operational range.

To think that it was a seriously meant request from Galland is to imply that Galland wasn't serious, or that he wasn't familiar with the normal way of making requests for equipment in a military organisation.

I was 16 years old when I met and asked Galland whether he really meant that he wanted Spitfires. I remember the way he looked at me - like if he wanted to tell me how tired he was of that question. But then I think that he maybe forgave me because I was so young, and he said with a smile: "No, I was satisfied with our Messerschmitts
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  #16  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:53 PM
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From further within the thread on TOCH!:

John Vasco
Re: On Galland and Spitfires
Sun Feb 15 15:21:50 2004
195.92.67.74

Christer,

This has, as you say, been debated at length already. I hav stated what I believed to be the point of Galland's statement: that he sought the freedom to seek out and attack the RAF fighters wherever he found them, not be tied to slow bombers. Regarding the veracity of Galland's statement, consider the following:
A.D.I.(K) Report dated 15th August 1945 (now unclassified) by Capt. John M. Whitten, USAAF, signed off by Group Captain S. D. Felkin.
Paragraph 130. "Göring's order caused GALLAND to explode and declare that it was impossible for Me 109s to fly straight at the speed and altitude of the slow bombers. When Göring asked him sarcastically just what he wouldlike to have in the way of fighters, GALLAND replied "Give me a Staffel of Spitifres!" The remark became legendary in the Luftwaffe and stimulated the German Fighter Arm's lasting respect for the Spitfire."


John Vasco

(This thread continued elaborating on this incident and whether Galland meant Staffel or Geschwader. The reader can read the rest of the thread by going to the topic "Books on Adolf Galland - 2" on the "References & Reference Materials" forum.

Regards,
Richard)
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2004, 02:16 AM
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From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
KG 6 book
Fri Jun 11, 2004 14:00
217.122.92.115

Hello Steve,

Though KG 6 has nothing to do with my main interests, I recently had a telephone conversation with Jaap Woortman, my colleague from the Dutch Airfields Group. He told me about this book and that Horn more or less acted on his own. Two other colleagues from the same group, Ab Jansen (author from histories of Leeuwarden and Schiphol A/Fs) and Johan Schuurman (author history of the Dutch Bergen A/F) have prepared a history of KG 6 in close cooperation with the KG 6 veteran association. It has not been published yet but the knowledge alone may have invoked Horn to publish first before Jansen and Schuurman did...

My main interest is the history of Venlo airfield in WW-2 and its main user unit, I.NJG 1. Have you ever by accident come across ADIK reports (or after war interrogation reports) of I.NJG 1 personel ?

All the best from Venlo, the Netherlands,

Marcel Hogenhuis
Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2
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  #18  
Old 06-20-2004, 02:28 AM
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From TOCH!:

Steve W.
KG 6 and I./NJG 1
Fri Jun 11, 2004 16:47
152.163.243.53

Thanks, Marcel, that's good news about the forthcoming Jansen/Schuurman book on KG 6. Prien and several others set the standard on these unit histories some years ago, and today an author must have access to the unit's veterans group and their flight logs, documents, photos and personal recollections if his book is to be taken seriously. Herr Horn did not do this. I will look forward to the Jansen/Schuurman work when it is published.

As for I./NJG 1, P/W interrogation report ADI(K) 348/44 is the only one I have encountered that had a little bit on this Gruppe. IIRC, it was a paragraph or two by a ground mechanic who was with I./NJG 1 in fall 1943 and then went to the Fallschirmjäger and was captured in Normandy. There are very few P/W interrogation reports for the Nachtjagdwaffe because they were not generally shot down over Allied-held territory, hence they did not fall into Allied hands. On the other hand, after the war a number of Nachtjagd- personnel were interviewed by RAF specialists about operations, tactics, technical matters, etc. These reports should be in a separate series (not ADI(K)) in the PRO in London, but I have not personally seen them. Some of the U.K. fellows (Nick Beale, Steve Coates, etc.) who have looked through many of the PRO files may be able to give you some suggestions on where exactly these might be.

Wish I had more, Marcel!

Steve W.
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  #19  
Old 06-20-2004, 02:29 AM
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Marcel Hogenhuis
Thanks!
Sat Jun 12, 2004 22:12
217.122.92.115

Hello Steve,

Many thanks for your swift and positive reply! Regarding the ADI(K) reports, it is very interesting to read that a mechanic went to the Fallschirmjäger and was then captured! So far I only knew from ground personel from I.NJG 1 who went to Luftwaffe Felddivision in the autumn of 1942, a majority of which soon were released again because the I.NJG 1 could not without these skilled people.

Your reference will be put on my 'wanted' list as soon as I will be able to go to London, that's certain!

All the best,

Marcel Hogenhuis
Study Group Venlo Airfield in WW-2
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  #20  
Old 08-17-2004, 12:18 PM
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From within a thread on 12 O'Clock High!:

Marcel Hogenhuis
a question...
Wed Aug 11, 2004 14:46
84.31.188.34

Hello John,

On behalf of Jan in 't Zandt who has no internet but is still going strong, do you know where the 2./NJG 3 was stationed on 31-12-1944 / 1-1-1944.
A Ju-88 from this Staffel crashed 1-1-1945 near Twisteden, southwest of Kevelaer (Germany). As it is likely that this flight was in preparation of or during Operation Bodenplatte, it is obvious to bother you first with this question, haha!

How are you? Best wishes and thanks in advance,

Marcel Hogenhuis
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